Of course, the Senators didn't just accept his explanation without a robust challenge. This justification of the Cabinet decision turned into a back and forth which lasted for more than half an hour. Here's a few excerpts from it:
Godwin Hulse - Minister of Immigration
"Cabinet's position with previous passports is that it was intended to be genuine. It does not remove the responsibility of the director to look at these in-depth on an individual case, it doesn't remove that responsibility."
Mark Lizarraga - Senator for Business Sector
"Minister, with the greatest of respect, that is not what this letter says."
Godwin Hulse
"That is exactly what that letter says. It says that persons who have passports and original documents, not one, passports, meaning that you are coming with your series of passports because that was the complaint. Not just the last passport over the last five years, you had passports and you had your original document that indicates that you are genuine. You got your first passport, you got your second passport and the department says we can't find your file. What were those persons supposed to do? Stay in limbo? That was the issue that kept coming up over and over and over by many people."
Eamon Courtney - Senator for the Opposition
"Do you not accept that the purpose for this was cabinet saying to the immigration department, we know what the law is but, 'cabinet has decided that persons who hold original nationality certificate and previous passports shall be issued with a new passport.' You were in effect saying to the department, don't you worry about what you have to do to verify the authenticity of this person, we are telling you to override that and issue it."
Godwin Hulse
"Absolutely not. This says, if a person shows up and has these requirements, has a nationality certificate, has passports, original nationality certificates, not copies, and passports, the department that undertook to ensure that everybody's file would be check, ran into difficulty. As a consequence, complaints kept coming to cabinet about persons whose passports cannot be renewed. And cabinet's directive was, you have your original certificate, you have previous passports, not copies of certificate and not just one, previous passports, plural, and you can't find, then what you do is create a file and renew this person's passport."
Eamon Courtenay
"Minster, how much passports did that person have to bring? This doesn't say that. It says if you have your nationality certificate and previous passports, how much passports you are to bring?"
Godwin Hulse
"It says previous passports minister."
Eamon Courtenay
"How much?"
Godwin Hulse
"So what would be a previous passport? One? It said previous passports, not a passport."
Eamon Courtenay
"So Wong Hong Kim couldn't get?"
Godwin Hulse
"No."
Eamon Courtenay
"And if Leela Vernon only had one passport she couldn't get? Is that the intention?"
Godwin Hulse
"The intention was for people who had previous passports that the immigration director could look at and say, ok, the person had an original certificate, you can't find a file, don't hang up that person man, go ahead."
Eamon Courtenay
"My final question on this, what I want to get clear- because this is what I believe the auditor general is pointing out- you are telling us in no uncertain terms that this is not to be construed as cabinet telling the department of immigration and nationality not to comply with the law."
Godwin Hulse
"No, it has to comply with the law. This does not in any way have to do with anything with not complying with the law."
We'll have more from the Senate Hearing in tomorrow's newscast.
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