And you may remember last night how Hulse was very disappointed that there were public officers who he and senior staff at the Department felt were culpable for the Won Hong Kim scandal. They managed to get off without any serious consequence, and so, Senator Courtenay wanted to know about Elvin Penner.
He asked if Hulse was policing Penner when he was running the day-to-day operations of the department. Here's what how Hulse answered that one:
Eamon Courtenay - Senator for the Opposition
"What was the working relationship between yourself and Minister Penner in the ministry?"
Godwin Hulse - Minister of Immigration
"It's similar to what exists now with Minister Williams."
Eamon Courtenay
"What are the details? Did she report to you on a weekly basis? How did you monitor what he was doing? How do you know what functions he was performing and whether he was performing them lawfully?"
Godwin Hulse
"Basically those reports come at cabinet time as you probably know when ministers get up and raise issues or discuss what happens or any significant issues that happened within the departments that they manage. That is the sort of relationship that we have or have had and continue to have."
"So it is not as though they sit with me every day or sit with me once a week to go through A. B, C and D."
Eamon Courtenay
"That's what I wanted to find out. So there was no organized system in the ministry whether it be weekly, bi-weekly, monthly meetings with you and Minister Penner for him to report to you and say Minister there were 10 nationalities, visas or whatever?"
Godwin Hulse
"No."
Eamon Courtenay
"So in so far as any irregularity was carried on whilst Minister Penner was there as far as you are concerned? If he is involved, that's on him."
Godwin Hulse
"To the extent that he was the functional minister, yes."
Eamon Courtenay
"And you would bear no responsibility as far as you are concerned, even though you are the substantive minister?"
Godwin Hulse
"In the sense of knowing that that happened and so I would not and could not and so, no. Overall as the constitutional minister, the responsibility will shine on me and that is why when I discovered this issue I went forth width to the Prime Minister and I mean forth width and said he [Penner] will no longer be in the ministry If I am to continue to be this minister and I want his removed."
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